Non-Inductive Coil Experiment

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bri77 posted this 19 hours ago

I have tried to replicate the Non-Inductive Coil Experiment. I get similar effects to what Tinker (neale) gets.

For the wave forms, the saw tooth drops down really fast, so it's for like 70%+ of the time. When I increase the frequency from 3k or so to 12-15k the wave form becomes similar to what's shown in video 7.

I do not have something to measure current right now.

Using amcc0320 Proterial

Primary - cw 14awg ,1.628mm. Wound on top of poc1.

Poc1 - cw 20awg, .813mm

Poc2 - ccw 20awg, 0.813

The input are all 5v and the amp shown are the amps on the x-tronic px-70 power supply (linear power supply). The pwm generator is FeelTech fy6300. It is set to 10v ampl and 5v offs square wave (This is to get 0v to 10v square wave pulse). The mosfet used is (IRFP4227PBFXKMA1): https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/196/Infineon_IRFI4227_DS_v01_02_EN-1227486.pdf. This has a 21mOhm RdsOn. The signal output from the pwm generator is connected directly to the gate of the mosfet. The primary + is connected directly to the power px-70 power supply. The primary - is connected to the drain of the mosfet. I have a 25v 470uF low impedance capacitor conncted to the priamry + coil and the gnd of the power supply.

One 12v 5w bulb on poc1. Another 12v 5w bulb put on poc2.

I tried to get the peak voltage the same for both poc1, poc2 with the following coils:

22mm wide
primary 7 turns (single layer) (around 13mm wide on top of poc1 about)
poc1 60 (3 layers) turns 21.8mH 1.105uF 0.6ohms
poc2 60 (3 layers) turns 21.8mh 1.138uf 0.6ohms
2800hz 10% 5v .235a poc1: 17.29v peak, 2.33v avg poc2: 17.28v peak, 1.84v avg

22mm wide
primary 7 turns (mutilple layers) (around, 8mm wide on top of poc1 about. I should try to get it closer to 1/4th which is 5.5mm.)
poc1 60 (3 layers) turns 21.8mH
poc2 60 (3 layers) turns 21.8mH
2800hz 10% 5v .238a poc1: 17.77v peak, 2.33v avg poc2: 17.77v peak, 1.74v avg

53mm wide
primary 7 turns
poc1 55 (1 layer) turns 18.28mH
poc2 55 (1 layer) turns 18.33mH
3700hz 10% 5v .195a poc1: 15.4v peak, 1.86v avg poc2: 15.5v peak, 1.57v avg

22mm wide
primary 9 turns
poc1 180 (9 layers) turns 192.5mH
poc2 180 (9 layers) turns 194.0mH
300hz 5% 5v .345a poc1: 18.85v peak, 1.98v avg poc2: 17.36v peak, 1.61v avg

All of these experiments, the sawtooth ended really early (70%+ flat line) before the next pulse.

The lights were mostly the same brightness.

With the 180 turns on the poc, the frequency had to drop really low (300hz), for the peak voltage to be about the same, and the sawtooth ends really fast, so there's a lot of flat time. Also the shorter width coils the frequency had to be lower, for the peak voltage to be the same.

When I raise the frequency, the saw tooth wave form is closer to what tinker and video 7 shows, but poc1 output would increase (4-5v average), and poc2 output would be (200-500mv average).

I am not sure what can be done to get a better sawtooth waveform (going all the way to the next pulse start) and having both poc1 and poc2 output to be close to each other.

I've tried winding primary over both pocs with different number of winds on each poc. I also tried winding the primary over one poc and then switching the direction of the wind before winding over the second poc. The wave forms weren't what was shown in video 7, but I did see in one of the cases both coil would have the same wave sawtooth waveform (like what you get on poc1, where it dips down when pwm rise then spikes up when the pwm falls.) I'm not sure if this is the way to get both pocs to have the same output, but it used a lot more power. One of the combinations of the diodes the output was about the same, the other combinations one was 2x more than the other.

I've tried all 4 combinations of diode direction on both pocs also.

The main thing I want to try and get is to have both pocs have the same output and a good sawtooth waveform (not ending early before next pwm pulse). I might of missed something, but the width of the coil if it's smaller, the magnetic field strength is supposed to increase, which is supposed to increase voltage /current?, but it didn't really increase that much for me with the 60turns (22mm wide, 3 layers) and the 55turns winds (55mm wide, 1 layer). I've tried higher voltages also, but it did not seem to give the result that I wanted (I forgot what the results were). I'm not sure if it's my switching system, but the square wave seemed ok, not super clean. I'll try building the "Quadratron" to see if it makes much of a difference. I think the things that I have left to try is the quadatron, change power supply?, shorten length of wires. Get a better 1/4th width ratio of the primary coil over the secondary. Maybe something is wrong with my core? or try a nanocrystalline core instead of amorphous?

I'll probably try replicating fighter's zpm also, once I understand things more. I've destroyed a 12v sff power supply and a few mosfets so far. I stopped destroying mosfets now, and using the 470uf capacitor the power supply does not go into protection mode? (Clicks and resets back to 5v) anymore and I can increase voltage.

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6 Comments

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bri77 posted this 19 hours ago

I have tried to replicate the Non-Inductive Coil Experiment. I get similar effects to what Tinker (neale) gets.

I do not have something to measure current right now.

Using amcc0320 Proterial

Primary - cw 14awg ,1.628mm. Wound on top of poc1.

Poc1 - cw 20awg, .813mm

Poc2 - ccw 20awg, 0.813

One 12v 5w bulb on poc1. Another 12v 5w bulb put on poc2.

I tried to get the peak voltage the same for both poc1, poc2 with the following coils:

53mm wide
primary 7 turns
poc1 55 (1 layer) turns 18.28mH
poc2 55 (1 layer) turns 18.33mH
3700hz 10% 5v .195a poc1: 15.4v peak, 1.86v avg poc2: 15.5v peak, 1.57v avg

22mm wide
primary 9 turns
poc1 180 (9 layers) turns 192.5mH
poc2 180 (9 layers) turns 194.0mH
300hz 5% 5v .345a poc1: 18.85v peak, 1.98v avg poc2: 17.36v peak, 1.61v avg

All of these experiments, the sawtooth ended really early (70%+ flat line) before the next pulse.

The lights were mostly the same brightness.

When I raise the frequency, the saw tooth wave form is closer to what tinker and video 7 shows, but poc1 output would increase (4-5v average), and poc2 output would be (200-500mv average).

I am not sure what can be done to get a better sawtooth waveform (going all the way to the next pulse start) and having both poc1 and poc2 output to be close to each other.

I've tried all 4 combinations of diode direction on both pocs also.

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Admin

Fighter posted this 12 hours ago

Welcome Bri77,

Feel free to post here images of the scope's screen and schemas with details so we can see what's going on.

You can also post videos of your experiments with size less than 500 Mb.

This way we can understand your experiments and eventually find the problems.

The AMCC 0320 from Proterial should work fine, the cores sold by Mouser are usually respecting the specs and have high quality.

I don't think you should switch to nanocrystalline, amorphous should work fine in these experiments (non-inductive coil and ZPM).

The only experiment where I used nanocrystalline core is my Aharonov-Bohm Experiment but there the setup and the goal of the experiment is different (using permanent magnet(s) for producing the Aharonov-Bohm effect around the core).

From my experiments with ZPM I would say if your DC source is entering in auto-protection it means you should increase your frequency and try to find the optimal/resonance frequency of your device.

Regards,

Fighter

"If you want to find the secrets of the universe, think in terms of energy, frequency and vibration."
		Nikola Tesla

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Jagau posted this 12 hours ago

Welcome to the forum Bri77.

Several forums have experimented with counter phase coils or CW-CCW coils for magnetic cancellation of the two coils. I'm not familiar with Tinker and Neale. Could you show us a video or drawings that would summarize your experience?

The Fighter ZPM is an excellent example to learn from.
Happy experimenting.

Jagau

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bri77 posted this 8 hours ago

Thank you Fighter, Jagau,

Some more information regarding the setup, the core is wrapped around with kapton tape. The part where the two pieces touch are not wrapped. The core bobbins are printed with pla plastic, the thickness is aroudn 1.6mm with a 0.46mm gap on all sides of the core. The gap is so i don't tear up the kapton tape / core layers everytime I put on the bobbin (have done this a lot of times now). Some of the metglass still flakes sometimes. I try to be careful since it's really sharp and thin.

I wonder if the kapton tape is messing anything up. I don't want to try and peel it off yet, since i'm sure i'll tear some of the first layer of the core off.

4 diodes I use are all STTH3R02. 1 diode on each of the pocs. 1 diode across the mosfet and 1 diode before the primary +.

I'm really new to this stuff, hopefully I drew a good enough schematic. The schematic only includes the connections to the primary coil. The connections for poc1 and poc2 are the same as what chris has on aboveunity.com, except that I have a load on both pocs and don't have the 0.1 ohm current sensing resistor.

primary_schematic

All the scope shots are

light blue = pwm signal

yellow = poc 1

dark blue = poc 2

Below is the scope shot for:

22mm wide
primary 7 turns (single layer) (around 13mm wide on top of poc1 about)

22mm wide, priamry 7

Below is the scope shot for:

22mm wide
primary 9 turns
poc1 180 (9 layers) turns 192.5mH
poc2 180 (9 layers) turns 194.0mH
300hz 5% 5v .345a poc1: 18.85v peak, 1.98v avg poc2: 17.36v peak, 1.61v avg

The avg I had to shrink the scope screen to get a better avg.

22mm primary 9 turns, secondary 180 turns

Below is the scope shot for:

22mm wide
primary 9 turns
poc1 180 (9 layers) turns 192.5mH
poc2 180 (9 layers) turns 194.0mH

15000hz 10% duty.

22mm 15khz 10% duty primary 9 turns, secondary 180 turns.

I think the wave form looks like what it's supposed to with the 15khz 10% duty cycle, but the output of poc2 is like 50mv. The output of poc1 is around 4v. These numbers aren't that accurate since I did not scale down the screen so it can calculate more samples. There is a big difference between the two poc outputs thougjh. This is what I don't understand how to fix. Going lower frequency will make the wave form flat out really early, but the output are closer to being equal. Also, with more number of turns on the two pocs, for them to have equal output it seems like the frequency has to be a lot lower. 300hz for 180 turns and 2800hz for 60 turns. The wide 55mm pocs with 60 turns required 3700hz.

I am not sure if the following is true, since I have not tested with a bunch of other coils:

More turns = lower frequency for poc outputs to be equal.
Shorter coil widths = lower frequency for poc outputs to be equal.

The windings are done on a coil winding machine, the coil winding machine doesn't create perfect layers. Also, I found that i might of tensioned the winding too tight and cause the magnetic wire to strip on some of the windings. I'm not sure if this has happened on the coils that I mentioned in these posts. Some of my bobbins had sharp plastic on edges or at least sharp enough with enough tension on the wire causes the outer coating on the magnetic wire to strip. Something to be careful about.

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Jagau posted this 8 hours ago - Last Edited 8 hours ago

Your schematic is missing a lot of information, but I see what you want to do now.

You want to pulse a single coil, which becomes the transmitting coil, and receive on two coils connected CW and CCW, which are the receiving coils.
If Is that correct, I have a question:

By connecting the three coils this way,

what are you supposed to achieve with this coils arrangement?

Please explain.

Jagau

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bri77 posted this 7 hours ago - Last Edited 7 hours ago

From what I've read, the primary coil has a voltage and current during the pwm pulse. This induces a voltage in poc1, which has a load, so the current flows through it. The voltage/current in poc1 induces a voltage in poc2 which has a load so current flows also. Then I think poc 2 will induce a voltage back to the primary.

Since poc 1 and poc 2 are oppossing they buck/fight each other, this is what causes the saw tooth wave form.

I dont understand why poc 2 doesn't go up to a peak voltage of 5-6v when poc 1 goes up to 6v peak from the primary pulse of 5v. I think what chris mentions is that the voltage induced is the change in current in time. So, does this mean that poc 1 voltage/current change over time isn't fast enough and that's why poc 2 has such a low voltage?

The primary sends a pulse that is probably high in amperage, so the change in current is really fast/high. Where as the change in poc1 current is pretty small powering the load.

I am not sure if this is the correct understanding of what is happening.

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Jagau posted this 6 hours ago - Last Edited 6 hours ago

Hello Bri77

Thank you for your reply, I believe you are experiencing the Don Smith effect which pulsed a first coil towards two others in opposition. Like the image below:

This was written in the handwriting of Don Smith